Self rep VS pickups

General forum for chat and banter.
Britnoth
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:55 am

Re: Self rep VS pickups

Post by Britnoth »

I can copy and paste into the wiki
If anyone feels motivated into providing something for the wiki, they can just edit the wiki themselves can they not? Otherwise, it is not really a wiki is it?

Also: new low reached with thinly disguised admin cheating in TVS.

Bye bye. :)
ecvej
Developer / Administrator
Posts: 704
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:43 pm

Re: Self rep VS pickups

Post by ecvej »

Of course that's how wikis work. The incentive was for them to actually do the writing in the first place.

Disappointed you would think this is an elaborate ploy to cheat.
2ice2bme
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:51 pm

Re: Self rep VS pickups

Post by 2ice2bme »

you guys all look at this as a single ship, or immediate problem

As someone whos lc'd before, pickups drive me insane.

You limp out of a fleet or homeworld or roid battle, everyones smashed up.

you tell people to rep up for 3 ticks before you move out. You log in 3 ticks later, half your fleet is completely full, half is still in the red/yellow because of no HMRs. From a teamstandpoint, picups are selfish. Self repping as you go also gets you out of the danger zone fast, as a t-10 ambush wont kill you as easy. They are safer, from an army standpoint.

IMO of course.
Islander
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:10 pm

Re: Self rep VS pickups

Post by Islander »

The announcement was made during franctic, I was expecting the prize to be given on the frantic -- not midway in a beta where the recipient (top player in the admin's own legion) suddenly becomes so much closer to carrier points. Even if the move was not intentional, it reeks of cheating and admin bias.

Edit: As a longtime cloaker, I'm also curious at the probabilities for the other results of pickups. I highly doubt that a bonus points pickup has the same probability as getting an HMR. Would this info ever be released?
Zypher
Administrator
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:06 pm

Re: Self rep VS pickups

Post by Zypher »

wow i missed the 10k point part of your first part. it was way way way way to high....1k was enough...10k is overkill
Zypher
Administrator
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:06 pm

Re: Self rep VS pickups

Post by Zypher »

ecvej, the 10k points needs to be removed/changed. its obiviously making a negative impact i know what you were trying to do *i should have read the post must closer* or i wouldnt have let you do it or atleast talked you more about the subject.

the idea was to get more people interested in writing and helping with the wiki. which mind you is a great idea. but the 10k points in a beta is prob not the right direction. id remove the points tbh even if i recieved the 10k points. change it to 1k and i think more will understand the idea. 10k is like a weeks worth of work for really tbh not much. DBs post wasnt even what you were going for...
ecvej
Developer / Administrator
Posts: 704
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:43 pm

Re: Self rep VS pickups

Post by ecvej »

@Islander the announcement was made during the beta. Also, it wouldn't be right to exclude 25% of the players from a competition just because an admin is on their team. I'm barely making ticks properly anyway as I spend most of my moves testing things so I don't really have much incentive to help a legion I'm not working for.

My final point on this is it's clear from the posts on the first post page who had the best one and so there's obviously been no personal bias from me. People that have played this game with me for years saying otherwise when they know I have always been impartial really stings. You all had the chance to be helpful and suggest better ideas than points before hand and no one bothered but suddenly no one is lazy when it comes to complaining.
Islander
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:10 pm

Re: Self rep VS pickups

Post by Islander »

Apologize if you thought I implied you were impartial, and that was not my intention at all. I'm sure everybody here appreciates the hard work and dedication that you have put into this game. I just wanted to highlight that the timing and person who won might be viewed as a wee bit controversial. Aside from the prize, I think it would have helped if you placed a time limit (ex. by tick 100) to the contest as well. I don't like the idea of 10k points reward as well, but I don't know any other in-game reward that would be suitable as well.
ecvej
Developer / Administrator
Posts: 704
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:43 pm

Re: Self rep VS pickups

Post by ecvej »

Faulcon suggested some kind of in game distinction about the player, e.g. like the old {v}. Something like that might work for next time I suppose and I will put a time limit on it as you suggest.

Reminds me, must get on with coding the {v} and maybe the next topic could be for people to come up with suggestions about how to get one :)
Butterfly
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:08 am

Re: Self rep VS pickups

Post by Butterfly »

Self-repair vs Pickups:
The question is which is faster based on Legion's quote, not which is "better", right?

quick edit:
//this is an amalgamation that obviously includes points already made, didn't see the 2nd page and see that 2ice2beme brought up the indiv. vs team standpoint topic
//darthbrooks and others on the first page already described some of the points I use but in more detail- thus tried not to repeat their detail e.g. darth's answer

Long-winded answer coming up
First of all, the topic/question seems to discount repair-ships completely, as it's not in the title and I'd assume repair-ships will repair over PU, and more obviously if they aren't even damaged.
(or does it?. What about repairing the fleet in a high damage sector? If this affects repair rate, then assuming all else is equal (which it never is but anyway), location is also a factor on repair rate.
this obviously holds true for locations with environmental hazards. Common sense, but since we're going for a full answer:
you won't repair as efficiently in the asteroids, NSA and an enemy's homeworld, one would assume anyway. Also assuming pickup chances are the same in all sectors)

Then it's a probability answer, and it does depend on the ship's level and current hitpoints, because as a ship's level rises a HMR will heal more, whereas the repair amounts remain static.
Also, the less hitpoints a ship has lost, the less beneficial/efficient a HMR will be, down to 50% of max where a HMR has ~100% efficiency.
5 moves per turn to repair 150 each, for 750 per turn.
I don't know what the different kinds of pickups are, there's a HMR with some probability, I'm guessing that's the only relevant pickup.

To measure faster when probabilities are concerned, there has to be a breakpoint. In this example, we can make the breakpoint 50%,
let's say that any probability of 50% and over chance of getting a HMR, in the time it would take to self-repair to max, constitutes that PU is "faster". Because, it would be, on average (assuming normal distribution of pickups etc).

Straight away, I can see a problem with this line of thinking, but since we're only concerned with what is "faster" and not "better", it's almost irrelevant.
The problem btw, is that we do have to take into account the probability distribution, because by going the PU route, some ships will be fully healed earlier, and some later than others. Then you might want to set the limit much higher than 50%, to get more of a fleet repaired simultaneously. This problem is partially averted though if we assume that repairships pick up the slack, it could also be partially averted by a strategy of "pickups for 50% or worse ships for X turns", and then after X turns switch to self-repairs until the fleet is repaired as a whole, taking on the advantage that some ships may have picked up HMR and give less work to the repairships- this still leads to some inefficiency if the maxed out earlier ships than have turns to waste waiting for the others, there is less repair-based inefficiency if the ships were below 50% and can spend remaining turns self-repairing while waiting, or if there is no need to wait for the rest of the fleet at all.
Again, without trying to get into the realm of "better" vs "faster", if we determine the important repair speed to be the rate at which the fleet repairs itself and not individual ships you can see it's still relevant.

So, set a breakpoint, anywhere from 50% to 75% (arbitrary figure I made up for now) based on the proportion of fleet you need to measure the speed to be simultaneously repaired. If talking individual ships go with 50%.

Any point where the probability to get a HMR in X turns (X being the number of turns to self-repair to full inc. outside repair sources(which complicates it greatly since that is in itself random and based on other players)) is greater than the breakpoint, it should be faster (on average) than self-repping, taking all the above into account. If we remove repairships from the equation though, and the probability of getting a HMR in 1 move is known and fixed, then it should be easy to work out which is "faster".

--- now talk about which is "better" and it gets horribly complicated with the strategic situation, points gained and "taken" from repairships by repping and self-repping respectively, danger factor, time factor, score from pickups factor, decoy usefulness factor, triple attack usefulness etc.


In summary, it's circumstantial which is better, but if the probabilities are known and removing all outside factors, a simple which is faster (have to add, "on average",) self-repair or PU, is based on whether you have a 50%+ prob. to get a HMR before you can self-repair to max.
However! you see this answer does not necessarily mean a ship has to be at 50% hitpoints for it be faster, if the prob. turns out a ship could even be at 75% hitpoints and HMR is faster.
It also means that, a ship could be below 50% hp, with exactly a 50% chance of getting a HMR in the X turns, then PU would be slower because the HMR wouldn't have fully repaired the ship in X turns at 50% whereas self-repping would.
This then further complicates it by:
If the prob is over 50% and the hitpoints is less than 50%.. then how do you work out which is better?
I think there is a way to work it out directly, perhaps using the HMR/turn probability rather than the overall HMR probability, but the simplest method of calculation would be to calculate from both X and the probability from the 50% point regardless to see if it's better or not, and if it's better autorepair the remaining.

It does make a difference though and we're already using the probability to get -at least- 1 HMR, if someone knows the correct formula of probability for it.
Last edited by Butterfly on Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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