Anti-bunny debate

[Anakin]

1. Because it can kill faster

No points, no reason to kill it faster unless its providing intel on your fleet, then the lvl 4/5 need to decide if its worth it as does the LC.
Any ship that lives past the 11 seconds mark, lived too long. It is not up to debate as to WHEN or HOW I play my game.. therefore ANY rule that asks of me to think who I am shooting and WHEN and WHY is not a good rule. especially if it`s a ship out of place one jump away of my damaged HW.

2. Because not always you DO have low levels to shoot
3. Because there are turns in which you have BARELY 2-3 online for a whole turn (euro late night - early morning). So they HAVE to wait for whenever a lvl 1 wakes up THEN moves, if none in sector.. or shoot and get -1500 per shot penalty.

Irrelevant to the game, once we start advertising again there will be more players and thus more low levels do to increased firepower on all sides etc and more players in general playing means less likely 2-3 online for a whole turn
I am talking about HERE and NOW.. not about the future. I have this problem NOW... your fairy tale about flocks of players won`t make it go away NOW.

1. As we all know.. bunny-ing in Roids is a very smart idea

When?
When people fail to see it as irony. As a way to explain that it`s borderline suicidal to shoot as a lvl 4+ a lvl 1 in Roids.

2. As we all know.. bunny-ing in HWs is a very smart idea <-- can be done but meh.. you risk an awful lot for one lvl 1 name that can`t hurt anyone for a good 4 turns period

When?
If your invading a planet killing lvl 1s just means you got shot 5 additional times that turn, granted they only tickly but that is still bigger hit to your shields then if you target higher lvls and make them lvl 1s.
If you are being invaded... its because you are down in points so targeting the enemy lvl 1s..... will not force them out or help you at all in the long run considering you need to gain points as quickly as possible.
SO, according to your logic... bunny-ing in HW`s does not exist. Or it is a bad idea... which I already said so.

3. A lvl 1, just as a lvl 2, just as a below 10 HP lvl 5, just as a full HP Cruiser.. is a SHIP...and discrimination between ships sucks

The discrimination is not against any ship the discrimination is against lvl 5 and 4 ships attempting to shoot low lvl players for pure fun or to add a kill to their score. Its distasteful, unethical, unhonorable, and is a huge turnoff to new players to come into a game knowing 0 about it, to try and do what the LC says and get 2-3 shotted by some lvl 5 ship d-bag.
That is the risk of a wargame. Or ANY game that has "PvP". Man up and play or go play "Dress my Barbie". It`s idiotic to bunny, but it happens...just as unethical as HW farming, or NAP`s, or idiots suiciding and feeding points to some Legion or another, just as relentless picking on the weakest Legion, just as HW camping, just as 3NAP`s against the weakest Legion.. just as many things. Facts of life...

4. A lvl 1 is NOT a target anyway in a big blob fight... if you shoot one "for lulz", well... you have just proven you are an idiot and a liability to your Legion, for wasting a good shot on the current target

Agreed, why is this a reason?
I was explaining why the lvl 1 is not normally a target and therefore the rule has no target.. except one or two butt-hurt individuals which got poached for lulz and they QQ enough for a badly thought rule to be added.. oops... now I`ve said it

5. A lvl 1 being shot in the above example is doing his Legion a SERVICE, by soaking damage. (and by the close calls I`ve seen this beta alone... EVERY shot counts)

Same as #4
And same as before too. The rule has no object here, since killing happens anyway in this game. Maybe some players need to man up and QQ less...

[Anakin]

sector domination: If the base is regening more then your killing it... your legion doesnt deserve to win, ec should implement SD for your legion.

scouting: part of the game, if you dont have lvl 3s to blow up the ship, its your loss.

My only thoughs are it should only -1500 for the kill not attacking the ship period.

Let`s explain to you my case. A kril lvl 1 bomber sitting in TMC, while the Tib blob goes to TMC. By all rules ANY ship can shoot ANY ship in a contested sector. Be it a lvl 1 or a cruiser. Oh... surprise... if I shoot I get penalty.

Let`s make it clear: I AGREE to a way of limiting bunny-ing or limit harassment. But the way it is implemented RIGHT NOW is flawed, because it leads to the above predicament: I cannot shoot the ship because I am too high level, ship which is in a sector that cannot be seen as griefing or harassment, since it is not a HW. And I SHOULD be allowed to shoot that ship in that sector... be it a lvl 1 or a cruiser...

Which leads to the following conclusion: The idea is badly implemented, so it needs to be cancelled and rethought over, as having unforseen effects.

Do you get it now?

[Demolition]

So.. If its broken... propose a fix, or let it be. I am tired of talking to a wall.

[Anakin]

I DID propose a fix: DROP it! At best don`t give points for shooting below 3 levels. But when it limits tactical shooting, be it by accident or not... the said rule MUST be taken out until a fix that DOES NOT break gameplay is found. If not then... the idea was a bad one and needs to be taken out.. permanently.

And I`ll say it again.. in red... so it sinks in...

A implemented idea / rule has an unfortunate side-effect, or unforseen effects = it limits gameplay, by limiting shooting possibilities in situations where ANY ship can and SHOULD be shot.

Examples:
1. Scout in a sector with ONE lvl 1 = uncloak, fire 5, kill said ship... next turn the whole Legion jumps
2. A lonely over optimist lvl 1 far away from home or ending up in the middle of an enemy blob .. shoot on sight...
3. Deny scouting in ANY situation / circumstance
4. Deny sector domination in ANY situation / circumstance

All real gameplay options ... all based on real tactical options. This rule imposes a penalty for shooting certain ships, which is incredible wrong.

So, I assume you don`t know how implementation of new ideas work.. I`l explain to you.

1. Find the need for a rule
2. Find the rule that fits the need the best
3. TEST the rule and see if it applies to MORE or ANYTHING ELSE than what it is proposed for ... the famous "Beta Testing"
4. TWEAK the rule if it steps outside its intended use
5. Implement rule and see if it works properly
6. Tweak the rule ASAP if it has side-effects, or take it out completely until it is tweaked enough as to those side effects to not be present

There.. but let`s make a comparison, just for you... Pros and Cons...

Pros:
1. No more harassment / griefing = in itself not a gameplay related incident, but rather psychological ... ;
2. No more "distasteful, unethical, unhonorable, and a huge turnoff to new players" = all nice and dandy but having precisely ZERO application on gameplay; it looks more like "don`t have the stomache to play a pvp game, maybe you should find a less violent game.. or with less harsh penalties". So, we really don`t need a rule to NOT shoot stuff
3.+ Any reason you can think of comes from the psyche and what someone might think or not for being shot... I am using the word SHOT and not bullied, for the following reason: a lvl 1 ship is not normally a target. It can happen, but this is a war game, or a PvP game, so ANYONE will be in a situation in which to be upset. The only advice is to get over it and move along...

Cons:
1. I cannot shoot a lvl 1 out of position, such as: Scouting as cloaker and kill any stray ship to deny scouting for my legion`s jump. - usually done by high level cloakers
2. I cannot shoot a lvl 1 out of position, such as: Suicide scout, which must be killed ASAP, so it does not give away scans. - usually done by ANYONE (the faster the shooting.. the better)
3. I cannot shoot a lvl 1 out of position, such as: Sneaky moving to take potshots at lonely ships / empty HW`s. - usually done by ANYONE
4. I cannot shoot a lvl 1 out of position, such as: Removing sector domination by "expendable" ships, denying HW rep. - the faster the shooting.. the better
5. I cannot shoot a lvl 1 out of position, such as: Ambushed afk / unlucky / overconfident lvl 1 by a full blob jump - kill ASAP to try and mask the jump. - the faster the shooting.. the better

There.. REAL reasons in REAL situations in which this idea backfires, or has side-effects...
While all this idea has to show is that some feeble soul can get upset if he gets shot.

So, no, I don`t have to propose a fix. The idea was badly thought over and did not receive enough testing, but it`s effects are far exceeding its proposed goal. So it HAS to be taken out until it can. I proposed no points given instead of -1500 but the idea is idiotic to begin with, since it puts "feelings", which are more or less a point of view, ahead of gameplay.

Explanation: If I get penalty for shooting a ship 3 levels below my ship... then I want for ANYONE that shoots me while I am below max health to get -1500 points per shot, because it upsets me. Sounds like I am a big wuss for asking this, doesn`t it? Or, better yet: ANYONE that shoots me, is causing me great grief, so I need them to get -5000 points per shot.. because I am such a gentle person that I cannot stand too much pressure. Now it sounds friggin` hilarious.

[iceblink]

Dropping it is not a fix.

And i still don't really see the problem because you can still bunny the bunnies, it just costs a few points.

A fix would be something like: if the bunny hasn't been active for 8 ticks it's free to take him out.

[Anakin]

I have VALID reasons to shoot the ships. Be it a lvl 5 or a lvl 1. I should not be penalized for doing so.

Explanation: This rule was implemented for the sole purpose of limiting the famous "bunny". Which is one/two shotting a lvl 1 or 2 "for chyt and giggles". Fine by me. But I pay the price for shooting the said ship WHEN I NEED AND HAVE AND SHOULD TO.. As per the examples above.

So, no... paying 1500 points PER SHOT is not acceptable when I HAVE TO shoot the said ship. And waiting for someone to shoot it is not acceptable either.

And yes... dropping it makes it no longer a issue. Because it has way too many side-effets for it to still be in.. or for anyone to be able to defend it, in its current form.

So, yes, until it is fixed / or found a way to not have said side-effects, it MUST be taken out, as it interferes with gameplay. The fix must be carefully thought about ... until such time arrives, this has too many "unforseen side-effects".

[Britnoth]

<Anakin> WHY do I lose 1500 points for DOING MY DUTY?
<iceblink> because you made an unfair move on a small shippie

Please expain how shooting the enemy in a wargame, where you score points and win the game by shooting the enemy... is unfair to the enemy?
Thank you.

[iceblink]

Most people oppose of bunnying because 90% of the time there is no real reason to bunny. For the lower level it means: back to 0, start all over again. So just because a high lvl wants to have some pathetic fun, the lower lvl is frustrated. It's better for the game if bunnying is punished.

Mind you: there is no limitation to game play, you can still remove scans from the enemy or prevent HW regeneration, but it will cost you points.

As far as i know mindless bunnying no longer really occurs, so the rule has worked well. And as far as i know nobody has lost a big amount of points over it. So you are making a problem out of a fix for an actual problem. That is my opinion anyway. It would be interesting to see what others think.

[Anakin]

Listen.. when there is ONE side-effect that big, to the point of making one unable to play the game, then there are too many...and I qualify "unable to play" to losing points for shooting within my own right to deny scouting or to get sector domination.

Care to debunk or prove that my 5 above mentioned reasons are incorrect? Or do we still talk about morals and whatnot?

Because right now, the morals have an effect on gameplay that they should not have.

Most people oppose of bunnying because 90% of the time there is no real reason to bunny. For the lower level it means: back to 0, start all over again. So just because a high lvl wants to have some pathetic fun, the lower lvl is frustrated. It's better for the game if bunnying is punished.
A wargame will always have low levels. That doesnt mean punish the higher ones when the need to kill the lower levels arises. 5 reasons above as to which might be the said reasons

Mind you: there is no limitation to game play, you can still remove scans from the enemy or prevent HW regeneration, but it will cost you points.
Why would anyone get penalty for removing scans to begin with? Why would anyone be penalized for playing the game?

As far as i know mindless bunnying no longer really occurs, so the rule has worked well. And as far as i know nobody has lost a big amount of points over it. So you are making a problem out of a fix for an actual problem. That is my opinion anyway. It would be interesting to see what others think.
There was never an actual problem. This rule is more trouble than its worth. Because it punishes far too many for far too few. Because it forces gameplay changes by being too broad

The rule protects lvl 1 and 2 ships. Fine by me. The rule protects "mindless" killing of lvl 1 and 2 - but what about situations in which you NEED to shoot ANY ship, INCLUDING the lvl 1`s and 2`s? Don`t they get free pass to sit in a sector if all ships are high enough level? Don`t they get more "exploit value", by being able to survive longer than they should?

I can present TWO separate cases in which, by all accounts and rules, ANY ship, INCLUDING a lvl 1, was free to shoot, without ANY suspicion of "pathetic fun". Yet it came at a price: -1500 per shot. Why is ANY ship more special that others in a "free for all" situation?

Can you answer those, iceblink, without twisting my words and without resorting to unproven facts?

[iceblink]

All your reasons say "I cannot" whereas you can. You just don't want to lose points for it. All 5 points are therewith debunked

I would be totally in favor of a piece of artificial intelligence that could flawlessly determine whether or not the bunnying was done for valid reasons. But we don't have such a system in place, so we will have to make do with simple rules. So we can either punish bunnying in *all* cases, or not punish it. In the past it was not punished, and a lot of people frowned upon the needless bunnying that was going on. Right now, it doesn't really seem to happen anymore. So problem solved, at some costs yes. But the cost is not high. Speaking only for myself: I cannot remember when i needed to bunny for tactical reasons. So in practice, you dont lose any points over this rule really (in my experience anyway) and therefore it does not "interfere with gameplay".

If in your experience (and i would like to hear numbers) it happens too often that you need to bunny and lose points for it, then maybe we can define certain circumstances when this occurs. That way the system can be improved without taking away the fix against bunnying-for-no-reason. I can imagine that a bunny in an enemy HW could be considered free game, because that is just asking for trouble. Maybe there are other instances where one could, with simple rules, determine that bunnying is allowed in that case.