Anti-bunny debate

[Anakin]

All your reasons say "I cannot" whereas you can. You just don't want to lose points for it. All 5 points are therewith debunked
Sorry .. losing points for playing does not qualify. Try harder next time.
Rephrase: Prove to me why I should lose points in the above 5 examples.

I would be totally in favor of a piece of artificial intelligence that could flawlessly determine whether or not the bunnying was done for valid reasons. But we don't have such a system in place, so we will have to make do with simple rules. So we can either punish bunnying in *all* cases, or not punish it.
Even if in at least 5 cases, we punish gameplay; legitimate, strategical gameplay.

In the past it was not punished, and a lot of people frowned upon the needless bunnying that was going on. Right now, it doesn't really seem to happen anymore. So problem solved, at some costs yes. But the cost is not high. Speaking only for myself: I cannot remember when i needed to bunny for tactical reasons.
The cost is too high.

So in practice, you dont lose any points over this rule really (in my experience anyway) and therefore it does not "interfere with gameplay".
In practice you lose 1500 points per shot.

If in your experience (and i would like to hear numbers) it happens too often that you need to bunny and lose points for it, then maybe we can define certain circumstances when this occurs.
ONE is TOO MANY! And I have had TWO in the last 30 turns... one in TMC to deny scouting and second in Dreadlar yesterday.. and one today.... Oh.. and btw.. you have numbers above.. FIVE of them. And we don`t need to define WHEN someone can shoot in a war game... it`s a given that you can shoot freely...

That way the system can be improved without taking away the fix against bunnying-for-no-reason.
It HAS to be taken down RIGHT NOW, BEFORE it gets fixed, because it limits far more outside of its intended goal.

I can imagine that a bunny in an enemy HW could be considered free game, because that is just asking for trouble. Maybe there are other instances where one could, with simple rules, determine that bunnying is allowed in that case.
I can also imagine a bunny being one jump away of my HW free game. I can also imagine a suicide scout as free game. I can also imagine a lvl 1 away of its blob a free game. I can also imagine a lvl 1 inactive outside any HW free game. I can also imagine ANY ship as free game, if I am in a position to shoot it.

[EDIT]

Turn 142
::Enemy ships in your sector::
Pilot Legion Level Score Hitpoints Ship
xxxx Krilgorian 1 xxxx xxxx/xxxx xxxx <--- lvl 1 in the middle of enemies SOT 142 NOT in HW.

::Friendly ships in your sector::
Pilot Level Score Hitpoints Ship Last move
Only my lvl 4 online SOT and I can`t shoot to deny scouting because I will lose points. Funny rule, isn`t it?

Care to prove to me why do I lose points if I shoot the lvl 1 that GIVES SCANS?

[redken]

why should level 4s and 5s be punished for bunnying, but cruisers and carriers doing pickups receive no penalty?

If a level 1 cloaker with 0 points jumps from its homeworld in the enemy blob next to the homeworld and cloaks instantly in order to provide scans why should the level 4 or 5 who gets the triple needed to kill it be punished?

[EwokDude]

Alternative solution: Remove sector dom and scans from having a level 1 in the sector. Discuss...

[Demolition]

why should level 4s and 5s be punished for bunnying, but cruisers and carriers doing pickups receive no penalty?

If a level 1 cloaker with 0 points jumps from its homeworld in the enemy blob next to the homeworld and cloaks instantly in order to provide scans why should the level 4 or 5 who gets the triple needed to kill it be punished?

Cruisers and carries receive the same point decrease as any other ship for hitting a bunny.
And as pointed out you can still shoot the lvl 1/2 if needed. You just have to be ok with the point loss. I don't see a limiting factor in the rule, its a discouragement not a YOU CANT DO THIS PERIOD.

I still don't see a reason why the rule should be removed. TO me all I see is "I wanna shoot bunnies so here is a list of somewhat logical reasons why I should be able to do it"

And Anakin, implying that people are incompetent because they don't share the same view of you is not a good argument, and will never encourage people to consider your view point. Try being tactful with your argument not berating.

[Anakin]

Alternative solution: Remove sector dom and scans from having a level 1 in the sector. Discuss...

It can still send comm with what is in sector; so we must stop the ship from sending comms too. And the pilot might be in taras sending PM`s. (part of a debate is to see how something can be "exploited", or "abused", or used outside its intended goal.. and this can be circumvented too easy.. and it is far too complicated lol) And it`s a more complicated solution that the already random rule which should have not been implemented. At a fast glance, zero points per shot seems fair. Because, in my opinion, it opens a whole can of worms any penalty applied to shooting for one reason: you have far more situations in which you actually need to shoot the low level than the potential "bunny-ing". I am thinking that we must find a solution that does not limit ANY gameplay "legit" solution.

And as pointed out you can still shoot the lvl 1/2 if needed. You just have to be ok with the point loss. I don't see a limiting factor in the rule, its a discouragement not a YOU CANT DO THIS PERIOD.

I am not ok with the points lost if I am supposed to shoot the ship. As anyone should be. Nor should I be discouraged to shoot when I have to. see above 5 reasons.

I still don't see a reason why the rule should be removed. TO me all I see is "I wanna shoot bunnies so here is a list of somewhat logical reasons why I should be able to do it"

The rule has to be removed because it adds more problems than it solves. At least 5 of them. Your assesment of my motives is hazardous and not even accurate. Please prove that the above 5 are NOT direct consequences of the rule and stop making assumptions about my reasons.

2 questions:

Turn 142
::Enemy ships in your sector::
Pilot Legion Level Score Hitpoints Ship
xxxx Krilgorian 1 xxxx xxxx/xxxx xxxx <--- lvl 1 in the middle of enemies SOT 142 NOT in HW.

::Friendly ships in your sector::
Pilot Level Score Hitpoints Ship Last move
Only my lvl 4 online SOT and I can`t shoot to deny scouting because I will lose points. Funny rule, isn`t it?

First question: Care to prove to me why do I lose points if I shoot the lvl 1 that GIVES SCANS?

1. I cannot shoot a lvl 1 out of position, such as: Scouting as cloaker and kill any stray ship to deny scouting for my legion`s jump. - usually done by high level cloakers
2. I cannot shoot a lvl 1 out of position, such as: Suicide scout, which must be killed ASAP, so it does not give away scans. - usually done by ANYONE (the faster the shooting.. the better)
3. I cannot shoot a lvl 1 out of position, such as: Sneaky moving to take potshots at lonely ships / empty HW`s. - usually done by ANYONE
4. I cannot shoot a lvl 1 out of position, such as: Removing sector domination by "expendable" ships, denying HW rep. - the faster the shooting.. the better
5. I cannot shoot a lvl 1 out of position, such as: Ambushed afk / unlucky / overconfident lvl 1 by a full blob jump - kill ASAP to try and mask the jump. - the faster the shooting.. the better

Second question: Care to debunk the above 5 reasons as to why the anti-bunny rule interferes with gameplay? And prove why -1500 per shot is warranted in the above cases?

[Steak]

I hope the rule doesn't change - rather give away a few scans and make the lower lvl'd crew shoot at the bunny; than dying/entering the game late and having little chance of catching up due to bunny defences being so low. I know u can say it's 'your own fault if u die or join late' and therefore pay the price hard, however as the game is played over such a long time span, there will be occassions where you've got to go afk for a few days and will ultimately die (like quite a few of my team mates this beta). If there aren't allowances for this, there will never be many players. It takes long enough to level up with the penalty in place, and that gives the chance to shoot some higher lvls and gain better points.

[Demolition]

If you've ever taken debate class anakin you should know the side arguing for change has the burden of proof. You have yet to prove in my eyes that the rule is broken, there fore no fix is necessary

Tell me when in this beta that rule has cost any legion a ship/unfavorable fight or in some way turned the tide of battle.

Prove to me that removing the point loss is more helpful to the game then not, and I just may consider supporting you. At present I see 0 reason to change it.

1. I cannot shoot a lvl 1 out of position, such as: Scouting as cloaker and kill any stray ship to deny scouting for my legion`s jump. - usually done by high level cloakers

Jump around= the ship? The only sector you cant go around that you might want to go through or to would be a HW, and they will know if you go there anyways. Especially cloakers can avoid shooting lvl 1s and pass through in peace.

2. I cannot shoot a lvl 1 out of position, such as: Suicide scout, which must be killed ASAP, so it does not give away scans. - usually done by ANYONE (the faster the shooting.. the better)

If its that important to kill the suicide scout,(i don't think these are even needed at all anymore with cloakers hypering while cloaked tbh so mute point) then the points loss will be worth it if you really need that element of surprise

3. I cannot shoot a lvl 1 out of position, such as: Sneaky moving to take potshots at lonely ships / empty HW`s. - usually done by ANYONE

There are already no points for a 4/5 killing a lvl 1. Why would you bother to take pot shots at them? no points.. they do no dmg... no reason. period.

4. I cannot shoot a lvl 1 out of position, such as: Removing sector domination by "expendable" ships, denying HW rep. - the faster the shooting.. the better

most lvl 1s out of position are inactive, no reason to hurry up here, send a few lvl 1s on your team if its THAT important. but IMO if you cant out shoot the base regen(as pitiful as they are atm including sector dom) YOUR ATTACKING FOR A PLANET KILL TOO EARLY. If your not after the kill, you WANT it to regen quickly for pointing up. Mute point

5. I cannot shoot a lvl 1 out of position, such as: Ambushed afk / unlucky / overconfident lvl 1 by a full blob jump - kill ASAP to try and mask the jump. - the faster the shooting.. the better

Why would you bother to hyper a legion into a sector to kill a lvl 1? Prime example of bunny hunting right there IMO.

[redken]

why should level 4s and 5s be punished for bunnying, but cruisers and carriers doing pickups receive no penalty?

If a level 1 cloaker with 0 points jumps from its homeworld in the enemy blob next to the homeworld and cloaks instantly in order to provide scans why should the level 4 or 5 who gets the triple needed to kill it be punished?

Cruisers and carries receive the same point decrease as any other ship for hitting a bunny.
And as pointed out you can still shoot the lvl 1/2 if needed. You just have to be ok with the point loss. I don't see a limiting factor in the rule, its a discouragement not a YOU CANT DO THIS PERIOD.

I still don't see a reason why the rule should be removed. TO me all I see is "I wanna shoot bunnies so here is a list of somewhat logical reasons why I should be able to do it"

And Anakin, implying that people are incompetent because they don't share the same view of you is not a good argument, and will never encourage people to consider your view point. Try being tactful with your argument not berating.

Cruisers and carriers don't need points therefore losing points is not a punishment. In fact in the dim and distant past when i was active enough to get cruiser and carrier I would actively try and avoid getting points once I had a carrier or cruiser (to minimize legion score and reduce the risk of getting napped against), by repping the bunnies for 0 points or leaving the points for the other combat ships. In fact if I lost points for shooting bunnies in a cruiser that would actually encourage me to kill them.

How about if you get killed by a shot scoring no points then you retain your current score when you respawn as an alternative to the current well intentioned but misguided attempt to reduce bunnying.

[Anakin]

If you've ever taken debate class anakin you should know the side arguing for change has the burden of proof. You have yet to prove in my eyes that the rule is broken, there fore no fix is necessary

I have provided 5 reasons as to why a ship needs to shoot a lvl 1, without it being "bunny"; the said reasons are what one might call "lack of beta testing", or "unforseen side-effects" of the rule; while the rule wants to protect abusive shooting of bunnies, in itself a hilarious feat, as we are in a war game, it hinders gameplay as per the above reasons. So, yes, I DID provide proof. I guess you missed them.

Tell me when in this beta that rule has cost any legion a ship/unfavorable fight or in some way turned the tide of battle.

Irrelevant: I pointed out 5 reasons where one should be shooting the said ship..ANY ship; yet one gets penalized for playing the game, or lose 1500 points per shot.

Prove to me that removing the point loss is more helpful to the game then not, and I just may consider supporting you. At present I see 0 reason to change it.

I pointed out pros and cons earlier: while this rule helps "feelings", it breaks gameplay, through the 5 reasons stated above; or putting a point of view ahead of actual gameplay.

1. I cannot shoot a lvl 1 out of position, such as: Scouting as cloaker and kill any stray ship to deny scouting for my legion`s jump. - usually done by high level cloakers

Jump around= the ship? The only sector you cant go around that you might want to go through or to would be a HW, and they will know if you go there anyways. Especially cloakers can avoid shooting lvl 1s and pass through in peace.

Example: I have a lvl 5 cloaker and go scout in a sector, for my Legion to see if it`s safe. I see a lvl 1 ship in the sector once I arrive. By all rules I MUST shoot the said ship, in order to hide my Legion`s jump. So I decloak and shoot. This rule penalizes me for playing the game at a rate of 1500 per shot. I am not in that sector to avoid detection. I am in that sector to see who`s in and kill or chase.

2. I cannot shoot a lvl 1 out of position, such as: Suicide scout, which must be killed ASAP, so it does not give away scans. - usually done by ANYONE (the faster the shooting.. the better)

If its that important to kill the suicide scout,(i don't think these are even needed at all anymore with cloakers hypering while cloaked tbh so mute point) then the points loss will be worth it if you really need that element of surprise

If I am one jump away of a enemy HW, one lvl 1 can hyper and "suicide", while providing scans, seeing how the points lost are irrelevant in the impending attack (he will get the points back if any in one turn anyway). Even an uncloaked cloaker trying to cloak at SOT can qualify if it`s a low enough level. I am penalized for playing the game at a rate of 1500 per shot. We do not debate when or how I will need to do it. And it is ALWAYS important to kill ANYBODY not on your Legion.

3. I cannot shoot a lvl 1 out of position, such as: Sneaky moving to take potshots at lonely ships / empty HW`s. - usually done by ANYONE

There are already no points for a 4/5 killing a lvl 1. Why would you bother to take pot shots at them? no points.. they do no dmg... no reason. period.

You missed the point. The ship taking potshots is the lvl 1 ship. ANY ship out of the blob is a "straggler", or "out of position". Reasons vary but not limited to: trying to level a bomber on an empty HW, found an enemy straggler, racing to catch the blob... ANY ship in those scenarios is free game. Yet a lvl 5 pays 1500 per shot for it.

4. I cannot shoot a lvl 1 out of position, such as: Removing sector domination by "expendable" ships, denying HW rep. - the faster the shooting.. the better

most lvl 1s out of position are inactive, no reason to hurry up here, send a few lvl 1s on your team if its THAT important. but IMO if you cant out shoot the base regen(as pitiful as they are atm including sector dom) YOUR ATTACKING FOR A PLANET KILL TOO EARLY. If your not after the kill, you WANT it to regen quickly for pointing up. Mute point

I don`t always have lvl 1`s of my own and the rule is shoot ASAP in certain cases. It limits the ability to shoot at will. We are not debating how base regen works and what position my Legion is in. When such a need presents itself, a high enough ship loses 1500 points per shot for clearing a afk lvl 1, or to clear a sector.. ANY sector.

5. I cannot shoot a lvl 1 out of position, such as: Ambushed afk / unlucky / overconfident lvl 1 by a full blob jump - kill ASAP to try and mask the jump. - the faster the shooting.. the better

Why would you bother to hyper a legion into a sector to kill a lvl 1? Prime example of bunny hunting right there IMO.
The bunny is in the way of my planned route to my target. Not jumping precisely for it, but it might happen. Yet one high enough ship loses 1500 per shot for playing the game.

Addendum: As I said before, but it got lost in the translation apparently: when a rule it too broad and interferes too heavily on other things it is a bad rule in its current form. That DOES NOT mean its goal or proposed effect is necessarily bad, but it`s not perfect or too... loose. Such is the case here: While it protects "feelings", it also breaks the gameplay.

What you also failed to understand is that this is NOT a debate. If you have ONE reason as to why you get penalty for playing the game, then its too many. I provided FIVE as to why you get -1500 per shot in legit strategic situations, or day to day gameplay, in which ANY ship is free game... lvl 1`s making no exception. This means the rule far exceeds it`s projected result / goal, so it must be taken down for revision or permanently, as it limits gameplay to a too greater extent.

But I have one more problem...

Turn 142
::Enemy ships in your sector::
Pilot Legion Level Score Hitpoints Ship
xxxx Krilgorian 1 xxxx xxxx/xxxx xxxx <--- lvl 1 in the middle of enemies SOT 142 NOT in HW.

::Friendly ships in your sector::
Pilot Level Score Hitpoints Ship Last move
Only my lvl 4 online SOT and I can`t shoot to deny scouting because I will lose points. Funny rule, isn`t it?

Care to prove to me why do I lose points if I shoot the lvl 1 that GIVES SCANS?. Or the lvl 1 that is just being there, out of position, in the middle of enemies? The lvl 1 that SHOULD be killed by all accounts and purposes? Oh.. and no low levels either as it was quite a disorganized jump.

[Demolition]

Hell if we're going to gripe about every penalty in the game...

I am mad I lose shields for killing a decoy

I am mad i dont get full points for shooting a target lower then me.... blah blah

Short and sweet, you cant have your cake and eat it too anakin.

There are and will always be downsides to actions, and you have to decide if the pros outweigh the cons.

I still do not see a single reason to remove the point loss. Show me how removing the pointloss will encourage more people to play, since the rule is such a game breaking "feature"