Anti-bunny debate

[Anakin]

Hell if we're going to gripe about every penalty in the game...
This penalizes GAMEPLAY! The same gameplay that DEFINES this game! Denying scouting and sector domination and shoot ANYBODY!

I am mad I lose shields for killing a decoy
That`s if I am stupid enough not to check to see if it`s a decoy... but I don`t lose points...

I am mad i dont get full points for shooting a target lower then me.... blah blah
As it is I am LOSING points for shooting...

Short and sweet, you cant have your cake and eat it too anakin.
I don`t have to. A rule that is supposed to stop "meaningless bunny" backfired and it`s impairing gameplay, by limiting options in strategical situations.. strategy is the name of the game, btw.

There are and will always be downsides to actions, and you have to decide if the pros outweigh the cons.
In a PvP game by shooting my enemies whould NOT carry ANY con, other than moving early and suffer the consequences... or whatever. But I SHOULD NOT decide if I accept losing point for DENYING SCOUTING or to get SECTOR DOMINATION... or to shoot ANY ship.

I still do not see a single reason to remove the point loss. Show me how removing the pointloss will encourage more people to play, since the rule is such a game breaking "feature"
That is not my goal. The rule breaks the gameplay as shown above. The rule is bugged, by limiting gameplay for which this rule was NOT implemented.

You still owe me an answer:

Turn 142
::Enemy ships in your sector::
Pilot Legion Level Score Hitpoints Ship
xxxx Krilgorian 1 xxxx xxxx/xxxx xxxx <--- lvl 1 in the middle of enemies SOT 142 NOT in HW.

::Friendly ships in your sector::
Pilot Level Score Hitpoints Ship Last move
Only my lvl 4 online SOT and I can`t shoot to deny scouting because I will lose points. Funny rule, isn`t it?

Care to prove to me why do I lose points if I shoot the lvl 1 that GIVES SCANS?. Or the lvl 1 that is just being there, out of position, in the middle of enemies? The lvl 1 that SHOULD be killed by all accounts and purposes? Oh.. and no low levels either as it was quite a disorganized jump.

Oh. and btw... to some extent, the REASON the rule is in is irrelevant: because hard facts state the following: If you shoot a ship lower than 2 levels difference, you get penalty -1500 per shot. Fine and dandy but you can end up in the following conflicting scenarios as shown above, where gameplay be penalized. Be it intentional or not... it is wrong and it should be tweaked as to avoid impossible dilemmas, such as penalties for strategical choices or regular gameplay. If not satisfactory "quick fix" is found, the rule is to be taken down until such a later date that all the "impossible dilemmas" are no longer present.

*"Impossible dilemma" = such gameplay event that prevents / prohibits / penalizes shooting a lvl 1, in which said lvl 1 is in no way more or less discriminated against a lvl 5. (example: Turn 500, in Star City, in the middle of a 50 Cruiser / lvl 5 ships blob.)

[Demolition]

Why should I have to prove to you that you lose points?

If you shot you already know you lost points..

Perhaps you want me to prove why? Wording the question so it needs an answer is probably helpful

Is not part of strategy weighing the pros and cons of each choice?

Is then not this a great example of what strategy SHOULD be?

Again, I think you just want to have your cake and eat it too.

[Anakin]

Why should I have to prove to you that you lose points?
stop circling and answer my question...

The rule states that if I shoot a lvl 1 as a lvl 4 I lose 1500 points per shot.

The problem is, in this "impossible dilemma", he is in no way more special than ANY ship. So WHY do I lose points for PLAYING THE GAME, IF this rule is perfect and doesnt need tweaking?

If you shot you already know you lost points..
..which I should not lose in the first place because the lvl 1 ship is in no way more special than a lvl 5. His fault for being there, not mine for being in the position to shoot somebody that ended up in the middle of my blob, outside ANY HW

Perhaps you want me to prove why? Wording the question so it needs an answer is probably helpful
Avoiding the answer doesnt help... try harder

Is not part of strategy weighing the pros and cons of each choice?
By moving around and by choosing targets. Shooting was NEVER a more complicated issue than : "if I move early do they have enough firepower to kill me? If yes.. I`d better move late and sleep in fall-back". ACTUAL shooting was never a question of carrying other penalties than getting killed ...

Is then not this a great example of what strategy SHOULD be?
We are not discussing your idea of strategy or mine.. we are discussing how a rule has unforseen effects, or how it limits gameplay.

Again, I think you just want to have your cake and eat it too.
I think you are making too many assumptions

You still owe me an answer:

Turn 142
::Enemy ships in your sector::
Pilot Legion Level Score Hitpoints Ship
xxxx Krilgorian 1 xxxx xxxx/xxxx xxxx <--- lvl 1 in the middle of enemies SOT 142 NOT in HW.

::Friendly ships in your sector::
Pilot Level Score Hitpoints Ship Last move
Only my lvl 4 online SOT and I can`t shoot to deny scouting because I will lose points. Funny rule, isn`t it?

Why should I lose points if I shoot the lvl 1 that GIVES SCANS?.

The lvl 1 that is just being there, out of position, in the middle of enemies. The lvl 1 that SHOULD be killed by all accounts and purposes? Oh.. and no low levels either as it was quite a disorganized jump.

There.. you have a clear question. Give me reasons as to WHY am I supposed to lose points in this scenario.

[Demolition]

There is nothing to prove... You and I already know that if you shoot a lvl 1 you WILL lose points at this point in time. If you didn't we would not be having this discussion.

Now, I do not see a single reason what so ever for you as a lvl 4 or 5 to shoot a lvl 1 or 2. You get 0 points for doing so, so there is no logical reason, no gain to you persoanlly for shooting that ship other then +1 kill on your stats. Hence the anti bunnying rulew was implemented.

At any point in any round I have been in, there are sufficient lvl 1s on each legion to take care of lvl 1s

If hes out of position, hes inactive or looking to lvl up. Since he does NO dmg to your blob why fret? Wait till he hits 2, then the lvl 4s can blow him up just fine and send him on his mery way back to home, why whine and moan ont he forums about it. I have yet to see a LC send a lvl 1 into a blob to scout... So if they are there its one of 2 reasons.. You hypered in on an inactive.... or the player is trying to lvl.

And once again, I still see 0 reason for a lvl 4 to attack a lvl 1 or a lvl 5 to attack either lvl 1 or 2.

When you started this whole rant scans where so wide open you didn't need the lvl 1 to see where enemies where going. And even now.. its much easier to use cloakers for intel then lvl 1 suiciders.

That makes you lvl 1 for scans argument mute.

And if I have to answer this question one more time.. I will just concede that I am talking to a brick wall, I hope you have more sentience in you then that.

[Anakin]

Better yet.. let`s do it as they do it in school...lessons / case studies:

1. I am in a lvl 5 cloaker in Roids and I want to scout if my bomber heavy Legion can go to Ajaxus unseen, for some free points, as the said Jax are busy shooting Bors and Krils in MH. I jump to Apollo and SOT I see a lonely lvl 1. My idea is to shoot the lvl 1 ASAP , so my Legion can jump. Reasoning : win one turn as, IF they had anyone with scans, will not be threatened by a lonely cloaker which can`t do much to a HW and bunny in HW is stupid.
Why SHOULD I lose 1500 points in this scenario?

2. I am in a lvl 5 cloaker in Dragor and I see on the hypering in window a enemy lvl 1 ship hypering in. I have information that the enemy blob is in Tripe. Next turn I am the ONLY one online start of turn at the 10 seconds mark.
Why SHOULD I lose 1500 points in this scenario?

3. I am in a lvl 5 cloaker, having been back from vacation in my own HW, when I spot a lvl 1 enemy bomber on the enemy tab.
Why SHOULD I lose 1500 points in this scenario?

4. I am in a lvl 5 cloaker, having just survived heavy bombing, so I need to get as many sectors as I can for my Legion. In their rush to leave, the offenders left one lvl 1 ship behind.
Why SHOULD I lose 1500 points in this scenario?

5. I am a Kril and I am rushing to defend PK coming from DH. I am a lvl 5, of course. Going to MH, I see one lvl 1 ship there.
Why SHOULD I lose 1500 points in this scenario?

[Anakin]

There is nothing to prove... You and I already know that if you shoot a lvl 1 you WILL lose points at this point in time. If you didn't we would not be having this discussion.
There is still the small matter of losing points in LEGIT gameplay scenarios or situations

Now, I do not see a single reason what so ever for you as a lvl 4 or 5 to shoot a lvl 1 or 2. You get 0 points for doing so, so there is no logical reason, no gain to you persoanlly for shooting that ship other then +1 kill on your stats. Hence the anti bunnying rulew was implemented.
You have FIVE legit reasons why I SHOULD be shooting the said lvl 1 ship. Closing your eyes and pretending they don`t exist won`t make them go away.

At any point in any round I have been in, there are sufficient lvl 1s on each legion to take care of lvl 1s
There should NOT be ANY waiting when trying to clear a sector... waiting for "the proper level" is not an option

If hes out of position, hes inactive or looking to lvl up. (not my problem) Since he does NO dmg to your blob why fret? (cos he still can give scans or can get sector domination) Wait till he hits 2, then the lvl 4s can blow him up just fine and send him on his mery way back to home, why whine and moan ont he forums about it. (cos I have legit reasons to shoot him at anytime) I have yet to see a LC send a lvl 1 into a blob to scout (we are not discussing decisions)... So if they are there its one of 2 reasons.. You hypered in on an inactive (the very active LC can see the sector with the very inactive lvl 1).... or the player is trying to lvl he should level with his blob, as to not be target by having far more juicier ones... and level by being ignored... but to penalize everybody else for a lvl 1 being in the wrong place at the wrong time is too much.

And once again, I still see 0 reason for a lvl 4 to attack a lvl 1 or a lvl 5 to attack either lvl 1 or 2.
I have given you FIVE just above... and five more ahead of them. You DO like to ignore stuff, do you?

When you started this whole rant scans where so wide open you didn't need the lvl 1 to see where enemies where going. And even now.. its much easier to use cloakers for intel then lvl 1 suiciders.
Strategy... words. You have been served FIVE scenarios in which this rule backfires or limits gameplay.

That makes you lvl 1 for scans argument mute.
hardly..

And if I have to answer this question one more time.. I will just concede that I am talking to a brick wall, I hope you have more sentience in you then that.
YOu have FIVE new questions to answer to You see.. I still can`t understand why I am being penalized for playing the game. Maybe your answers will enlighten me

Furthermore... on your anti-bunny rule... I need/want sector domination and I find a lonely lvl 1. Why do I get minus 1500 per hit FOR MY OWN RIGHT to clear a lonely pilot in a sector that helps regen HW?

While I understand that the rule can help certain cases.. in my case it subtracted points for my own right of clearing a sector... and no.. I don`t want to wait for ships "within no-penalty zone".

Suggestion: Make it so you don`t get POINTS for shooting within the "zone".. but penalty is too much.

The above is my opening post. It was meant to show that the rule is not perfect. Upon further thinking and seeing things, I saw too many events in which this rule should not apply. every argument I brought forth is providing examples of legit situations in which ANY ship is free game, with lvl 1 making no exception. As such, discrimination on ship level has no place in the above scenarios, which are gameplay scenarios, as shown above.

The reason as to why this rule was implemented was not an issue nor it is up for debate.

What IS up for debate is the effects of the rule over legitimate gameplay scenarios. Because, when a rule imposes penalties for something else than what was implemented for.. it needs to be taken out or tweaked ASAP. Not by me or by you.. by the person that thought it, or by the one/s that implemented, in such a manner that it does not creates "impossible dilemmas".

Making sure you know what we are debating or talking about. I am trying to explain why this rule brings more problems than it solves.

[iceblink]

In fact if I lost points for shooting bunnies in a cruiser that would actually encourage me to kill them.

Eh... how does that work then? It makes no sense to me?

How about if you get killed by a shot scoring no points then you retain your current score when you respawn as an alternative to the current well intentioned but misguided attempt to reduce bunnying.

Best remark i've seen all thread The only problem i see with that is that high levels might take the first big chunks off and then the lower levels will finish the job -> still all points lost. And suicide scanning near HW could still happen this way (though like Demolition said, you could use cloakers for that now). But all in all this is a good idea!

[EwokDude]

How about if you get killed by a shot scoring no points then you retain your current score when you respawn as an alternative to the current well intentioned but misguided attempt to reduce bunnying.

Best remark i've seen all thread The only problem i see with that is that high levels might take the first big chunks off and then the lower levels will finish the job -> still all points lost. And suicide scanning near HW could still happen this way (though like Demolition said, you could use cloakers for that now). But all in all this is a good idea!

I agree with this as a solution to Anakin's issue.

[Arch]

Your contrived scenarios do not occur on a regular basis in the game. In conjunction, all 5 of those scenarios either offer no strategic value to shooting the L1 or information gathering would occur separately from that L1 being in sector - so the need to kill it is moot.

You are blowing this issue way out of proportion. The benefit far outweighs the cost in nearly every situation and there is no need to change the rule since decision making is an integral part of gaming in the first place - why remove that from the game?. What you need to do when (and if) these situations present themselves is weigh the pros, weigh the cons, and make a decision to shoot or not. We do not need to ruin the game for returning/new players in the latter stages of the game because you want free reign to kill everything

For the record, I like redken's idea as well. Would definitely be worth investigating.

[Anakin]

So, in your opinion, my scenarios DO NOT EXIST AT ALL in this game, Arch?

Are we even playing the same game?

The rule tried to limit shooting low levels... more like GRIEFING low levels... which is grief only if done to upset them on purpose.. which needs ill-will. Fine by me... but there is NO ill-will when I find a lonely lvl 1 ship somewhere and I shoot it. If it dies.. that`s not my problem nor does it need special attention.

Your contrived scenarios do not occur on a regular basis in the game

If they occur ONCE, then the rule has exceeded its purpose, as it penalizes gameplay. If it is too hard for you to grasp the concept.. please stay away...

The benefit far outweighs the cost in nearly every situation

WHAT benefit? Exploiting low levels in the middle of a blob? Exploiting sending low levels to scout? Exploiting low levels spread around and gone inactive? Yes... FAR more benefits...while the cost is LIMITING LEGIT gameplay.

What you need to do when (and if) these situations present themselves is weigh the pros, weigh the cons, and make a decision to shoot or not

NO! I shoot and then live or die based on enemy firepower and how early I fired vs how many can kill me in 15 minutes or until I cloak if I have a cloaker. Not based on "how many points do I lose".

We do not need to ruin the game for returning/new players in the latter stages of the game because you want free reign to kill everything

Latter stages of a game is easy to level. And if someone can`t stand the heat in a pvp game.. maybe they are better playing something else.

But answer my questions please.. point for point...